As President John Pudner concluded his radio tour in St. Louis, Missouri discussing the indictment of former President Trump in Georgia as a special prosecutor is appointed for Georgia Lt. Governor Burt Jones’ case due to alleged conflicts of interest, Pudner highlights his time as director of then-Governor George W. Bush’s faith-based efforts for his 2000 presidential campaign, wherein he witnessed the now-infamous Flordia recount led by famed lawyer Alan Dershowitz, who recently gave a scathing critique of the indictment, saying the actions of Trump’s team in 2020 mirror what his Gore team’s in 2000:
“It’s pretty much the same thing I did and Professor Lawrence Tribe did, and those of us who were on the Al Gore team. I was representing the voters of Palm Beach County, and we were saying ‘please check this county, check that county, find this vote find those votes. We think there are more votes.’”
Pudner also highlights the specific nature of the indictment and how it leans into allegations of its political nature, noting that these are specifically designed to not be pardonable by himself or any president, so if elected in 2024, there would be a possibility that the duly-elected president would also be officially charged as a potential criminal for, as previously mentioned, acts similar to that of the Gore team in 200, which were seen as banal by the media, political elites, and judicial system.
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The following transcript from this interview is presented in its entirety with minor edits:
Trump, electors, Georgia, indictments, Gore, Biden, pardon, challenging, special prosecutor.
Heidi Harrison and TBOR Action President John Pudner
Heidi Harrison 00:00
John Pudner join us, he is President of Take Back Our Republic Action, to talk a little bit about what's happening with Trump in Georgia and this whole mess. Apparently, a special prosecutor is supposed to be named to probe the Georgia Lieutenant Governor and, my gosh, I can't keep track of all this. How are you, sir? Doing great.
John Pudner 00:16
Doing great. Thanks for having me!
Heidi Harrison 00:18
What a mess in Georgia! I mean, I've read the complaint, I know you have to, and it's a little bit crazy, what's happening, all the people being brought into it...I mean, it's nuts.
John Pudner 00:28
Well, I think the special prosecutor you're touching on should be exhibit A on whether or not this is a fair trial. You know, both sides say they're arguing that everyone should be treated the same under the law. The left says Trump isn't above the law, the right says you're hitting him because he's strong in polling, but the special prosecutor didn't recuse herself. The judge told her she had to because she had hosted a fundraiser for the opponent of Lieutenant Governor Burt Jones and was then on the path to include him as one of the people she was prosecuting. So, how much clearer can you be on whether this is politically motivated or not?
Heidi Harrison 01:03
What a mess. The latest I've seen is next March, they're going to start this trial, that's what they're trying to do?
John Pudner 01:11
Yeah, that's what it looks like, and this idea that having an alternate list of electors while elections are very close in states, there are legal challenges going on, as there were in 2000, a campaign I was involved in for George W. Bush, where Al Gore was challenging, and Alan Dershowitz has been on saying, "Hey, they were asking us to find votes in Florida for Gore. That's all he needed. No one said it was criminal." But, the idea that just putting together your alternate list, in-case a challenge works, so that you have electors to vote for Trump, that that is thwarting Democracy...I think you have to argue just the opposite in this case,
Heidi Harrison 01:53
I was hearing about how the DA pushing for this trial to go on March 4th, right before Super Tuesday, that that's actually pretty unlikely. Is that what you're hearing too?
John Pudner 02:03
I just keep hearing it described as wildly ambitious, so I don't want to say impossible, would use word unlikely, which I think is probably the best word. I think it's a long shot.
Heidi Harrison 02:16
I had heard that, If Trump were elected president, he becomes a nominee, he's president, that he could pardon himself, but not in Georgia and New York, because that's more on the local level.
John Pudner 02:27
That is what she seems to be trying to do in Georgia is that these are your state laws, and that you can only pardons for federal violations, and that seems to be a focus. And again, this seems to point to the political nature of these charges, that that would be a focus to try to have unpardonable offenses so if the American people were to elect Trump as president, you could still have him as a criminal. System's upside down!
Heidi Harrison 03:01
No question. We're sticking with John Pudner. I'm Heidi Harrison in for Mark Cox. He is the president of Take Back Our Republic Action. You know, looking at this indictment, almost every count says that this was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, so the main thing that they're trying to prove is it was all conspiratorial, otherwise they're not gonna be able to go on all these things, are they?
John Pudner 03:21
That's right, and I just want people to consider what happened in 2016 to electors when the left was trying to block them from getting in to cast their votes, when they were getting death threats, I mean, even a pretty left publication, Politico, accounted it, and just a quote from them at the time, the day before the vote to pick Trump in 2016, electors were targeted by death threats, harassing phone calls, reams of hate mail, they document how a home inspector lost all his business because he's getting so harassed.This was the overt attempt to stop electors from picking a duly-elected president in 2016. Just look at the history.
Heidi Harrison 04:10
And of course, Hillary Clinton never admitted that she lost. Al Gore, as you mentioned, never admitted that he lost. Has he?
John Pudner 04:18
Gore actually did admit he lost at 3am, and then about 4am, decided he hadn't lost, so there was an hour there where he conceded.
Heidi Harrison 04:27
Yeah, we're sitting with with John Pudner. I'm Heidi Harrison in for Mark Cox. He is the President of Take Back Our Republic Action. You know, what's interesting, too, is when you read them, almost all these indictments say the same thing basically, which is Trump lost and he won't admit it. Trump lost, he won't admit it, and he was told he lost, and he wouldn't admit it. That's what's driving them crazy.
John Pudner 04:47
I think it is and the fact that, as was pointed out yesterday in some news outlets, that they keep putting these out every day that there's news on Hunter Biden. Not only is it just politically driven, these indictments seem to be news cycle driven, so if you're trying to argue equal justice for all, I just don't see how the left wins that argument.
Heidi Harrison 05:08
I think too, what's interesting, is they're going after him in Georgia with this RICO charge, and that was used to take down the mafia. This just feels unprecedented. I don't know if that's really the the most fitting word for it, but it just seems like they're throwing everything they can at them and hoping something sticks, like you said earlier, John, so we can't pardon himself.
John Pudner 05:29
That's right, and just the 10's of millions spent on this, and how many resources has it taken, and I think Burt Jones did point out to that there is a real crime problem in Atlanta, and this is what the district attorney is focusing all their resources on, as opposed to cleaning up crime?
Heidi Harrison 05:51
Boy, isn't that the truth? And a lot of people are looking at that, and looking into the Biden administration, asking how many hundreds of millions of dollars more to Ukraine? Meanwhile, the people in Maui are getting, what $700 apiece, something like that? That'll pay for one night hotel room? I mean, our priorities in this administration, as you all know, are crazy.
John Pudner 06:10
That's right, and I had a related story and foxnews.com today on the 100 million dollars that the Chinese put into University of Pennsylvania, whose president is now an ambassador to Germany, while money is flowing to Ukraine. I mean, just the conflicts....Are American interest being represented by any of this? I would argue not.
Heidi Harrison 06:33
We're sitting with John Pudner, President of Take Back Our Republic Action. What do you think's gonna happen with Trump's legal bills? I mean, obviously, people are donating, he's a wealthy guy, we don't really know how wealthy...some people look good on paper, some people not so much...We really don't know. What do you hear about the legal bills, and they're ultimately trying to bankrupt him, we know that, but what are you hearing?
John Pudner 06:53
Bankrupt him, or at the very least, not get him any money for his campaign, because he is spending more than is coming in now, even though he has had effective fundraising on legal bills, so if your money that you would be using for advertising, is instead going to 10's of millions of dollars in legal fees to present yourself, another argument of why this is political is that you're damaging a political opponent by keeping them in court. That has to be top priority over a TV commercial, perhaps exposing Hunter Biden, and Joe Biden, and getting out information on them, which would normally happen in a political campaign.
Heidi Harrison 07:31
Interesting. Now, final question, because you brought up something I hadn't thought of. Are you allowed to spend donations to defend yourself legally, are you'd like to spend them on pretty much anything you want to or not? That'd be another issue they'll wind up in court over.
John Pudner 07:46
There's some rules on it, but no, no one's been challenging that you can spend them on legal fees, that does happen at times and those are always more a question of if your donors have a problem with how money is being spent, and I don't think his donors are going to have a problem with their donations being spent on fighting off these prosecutions.
Heidi Harrison 08:06
Last question, do you think Trump's gonna show up last minute to any of the debates?
John Pudner 08:12
I'm sitting here in Milwaukee, not too far from the first debate stage, several blocks, but we're hoping he's here, and he has a flair for the dramatic, I think he'd be more likely to do it last minute than to announce it three months ago, so it could happen.
Heidi Harrison 08:29
It'll be the Trump's show whether he's there or not. You're likely right. They'll be talking about him either way, he's going to be the ghost in the room, one way or the other. John Pudner, thanks for joining us.